Difference between revisions of "When and how to take action"

This meeting starts with texts. Alma is defining her own place in a Euthantoic tradition and working out what actions she finds acceptable when interfering in people's lives. When should one choose to act? and what is the appropriate force to apply when one chooses to act? Zach seems to be extremely opinionated about this. Therefore, poke.

Alma: reality is a part of you. how can you not manipulate people?

Zach: People aren't porcelain dolls. Their egos resist external changes as long as you don't push too hard you can trust them to endure.

Alma: I don't understand what you mean by pushing too hard

Zach: Manipulation is just applying an impulse to an object - trying to make it change course. All sorts of ways to do that. Using channels they can see and are cognizent of leaves them the ability to make decisions themselves. That's gentle. Directly trying to force your thoughts on them - extreme - is not gentle.

Zach: how much do you you decide to help? pushing hands is using physics. how can you exist in a city? I saw you and you talked to people

Zach: Depends on the sitch? Depends on my values. Depends on whether or not I see the problem. All sorts of factors. Talking's pretty basic. Most people have figured out talking.

Alma: earlier I mentioned about birds? before that it was people. poor impulse control messes people up

Zach: When a lot of people use the term impulse control what they really seem to mean is: do things the way I want. I think people are less messed up than they seem.

Alma: huh i mean, like dark triad? but not as, do you knwo what neurotypical is?

Zach: I've seen the term used, yes. I'm not much of an expert on the context.

Alma: jargon is a short cut but don't wnat to use it if it's not shared. say like someone doesn't hear sarcasm huh nevermind. start over. sometimes people have really intense reactions! the first few seconds maybe even! some people can modulate that. some people have to learn. see all the gangs?

Alma: ugh I am not a ..dgooder? it's not my job. bad examples but really obvious so fall back on them

Zach: No disagreement so far. Props for terminological precision tho

Alma: I am learning how to talk to people. (annoyed face emoji)

Alma: I don't think gangs uh.. if it was social are stupid but machismo is stupid so impulse control means problems. and then cops. ok, what if I gave people space to feel? that's not manipulative. later on I can talk. just talk

Alma: oh! look

Zach: Gangs don't have a monopoly on machismo so I don't see them as necessarily bound up together, just strongly overlapping, but okay.

Alma: it's an exacmple dude I guess it was on the brain because my mom in Chicago and they're supposed to be a sanctuary city but the gang database is a loophole

Alma: she's a community org and my dad is an eye doctor

Alma: why did you get mad when my student looked at you? I looked at you teh other day. It was beautiful. what if I read how people are feeling do you know about euthantaoi?

Zach: He didn't just look. He pushed. It was a minor thing, but there wasn't consent. And yeah, I know about them. We don't get along. See also: consent.

Alma: I try to figure out consent. exactly. my teacher is euthanatos. me I would like to give people chances to learn before they are dead. or not be someone powermad people would think should be dead. okay about machismo

Alma: I help out in the neighborhood do you know about the Chicago heat wave?

Zach: Okay. Hold up. We need to go back. a) if you have a teacher, you should check with them before you keep talking to me. I don't want to see you get hurt for being nice. b) The euth would say that they've given people ample choices, and so now it's time for them to make the death happen. They don't just wait for someone to die of their own accord. If they did, I'd have a much more favorable opinion of them.

Zach: As for heat waves, no I wasn't privy.

Alma: ok I'll talk about heat wave and catch up on euth later. old people die more in extreme temps and old men die even more because they didn't learn the same things about humans. ok so gangs? ok wait, did you know I'm queer? ok so old lgbtq+ people from the generation before me are very alone. ok so euth, I think it's our duty to do a lot of shit like help people not die alone

Alma: ps. I'm not nice. people think that but don't mistake respect of boundaries for nice

Zach: I did not know, no. Yes, I recognize the factors you're identifying. And yes, I'm aware that old queer folk are particularly lonely and that there's consequences to that. At the end of the day, though, I'm not prepared to say that those people are making incorrect choices. Loneliness manifests for different people in different ways, and for some of us it's actually pretty comfortable. Not wanting people to have to die alone is a nice thing to wish for, in my book. It's a form of caring - but there's nothing specifically Euthanatoi about that. Half the faiths in the world, their clergy do that same job, for the same reasons. What defines the Euth is the willingness to make someone die /today/, because the Euth have decided that this person has gotten all of the utility out of that life that they're gonna respect. That's pretty ghastly shit.

Alma: yeah if i was different clergy you should say the same thing to because I shouldn't priv my clergy over other. I didn't even respect clergy so much until recently sad to say

Zach: I'm not a fan of religious institutions, no. And for the same reasons. But I also haven't seen many of those insitutions normalize murder - at least not as a thing their own vested members should be doing. There is a distinction there.

Alma: did you know I like crows?

Alma: :p

Alma: so I'm trying to figure out what wakes me up and I was not superstitious and then this. I'm reading a lot now. sometimes crows help people not get lost on their way out

Zach(Three texts in rapid succession): Yes? What's that got to do with anything? -- Wait is that pun-joke? -- I'm probably not the audience to try that out with.

Alma: no huh? no joke. I'm trying to figure out euth stuff. like is it fate? what brought me there? -- so all those stories? what do they mean? -- not fake question. i'm trying to figure it out

Zach: So when I said I don't get along? I mean I REALLY don't get along. I'm probably the worst person in the world to ask about this stuff. But for what it's worth: those are answers you need to provide for yourself. If I tell you one thing, then I'm influencing you unduly. I don't get to be the author of you. But the stories soak the whole lot in blood, and what that means is gonna be a function of what you do with it.

Alma: ok look I'm not going to blindly do what they say, I think they are in some sense evil even though you don't beleive that. I don't understand good and evil because it's weird. people try to explain it to me and I feel like if someone explains good enough I get tricked and confused -- but there is evil in all organization? -- I don't know do yous till want to talk? can we talk in person? maybe not? -- this woo stuff is really political? -- what the fuck is up with everyone it's like people learn deep and then flip their shit

Zach(After long pause): Yeah we can talk. where you wanna meet?

Alma: park? or maybe coffee/bar -- dunno if you are a bar person -- I can take or leave but I want quiet

Zach: Parks are good. I like outdoors, and quiet is good. Pick your favorite, I'll head over.

Once she picks the location there's a text about how she seems to want LOTS of quiet, but he's fine with it. Of the two, he's the one with the fearsome reputation after all. It takes him about half an hour to get there, but the low rattle of that diesel motor in the Jeep can be heard for a minute or maybe two before he pulls up at the old disused and extensively overgrown park. The Jeep is a good vehicle for this, really - high suspension, four wheel drive, etc. He parks it in what used to be a parking lot, and is not a field of hardy, aggressive weeds and broken asphalt-gravel. No fanfare. He disembarks and texts that he's arrived.

Alma texts zach rough directions to her tree. She's got her back against a tree, she's been reading. Her bag is open with some food in it, and some books are out, with bookmarks in them. some for her field of study but some not at all related to it. she's got two versions of the Tao Te Ching... actually one is title Te Tao Ching. and right now she's reading Sonnets to Orpheus by Rainer Marie Rilke. Note likes this area, but Note has her life too, you know? You don't see her here.

Zach is able to reconstruct the path from those directions easily enough and approaches without pretense or fanfare. Strolling with his hands in his pockets, he seems relaxed enough - even if his shoulders slouch forward just a bit. He glances to the side every so often, off into the distance as if just to keep tabs. His concession to the temperature is that heavy woolen trenchcoat of his, but he doesn't have it buttoned up. It's designed for 'so cold your breath can be heard hitting the ground,' after all. Those months have passed.

Uh, want anything?" Alma digs in her bag to point out some round loave of bread with a bit ripped out, some sharp cheese, and some oranges. "I got some trail mix too." She kinda looks, "You seem really edgy, you know?" She doesn't sound motherly about it. Her tone of voice might sounds more like a doctor going "have you ever considered not being edgy?"

"I'm good," Zach answers, waving off the offer. "Do you not know who I am? Is that how we wound up here?" It's possibly an answer to her question, possibly the voicing of something he'd been mulling over on the drive over. There's genuine confusion there. He doesn't sit, but he also stands far enough away that he's not looming over her.

"No? We met at the gun place, and then with Kai? and I saw you meditating?"

Zach sighs and nods, "Okay well, I'm Zachary Allen Penn. 'The Ronin.' That name doesn't mean much to you, maybe, but I bet it means a fair bit to whoever you know with any rank or status within the Chakravanti. Insofar as they're part of the Council, I'm persona non gratis." His whole voice transforms for both the word 'Chakravanti' and less so for the latin phrase. Where his English has no placable accent (though he uses idioms and chooses words like an American), that one word has a richness to it that most American speakers of other languages do not manage. "I guess they're not kicking people out for just talking to me, but there's some due dilligence you ought to do before deciding I'm someone you want to be matching wits with. Fair warning."

She doesn't roll her eyes, but she does look irritated. "It's like I said. people jsut flip their shit. I should be able to talk to people. Um.. hold on a second." She pulls out a notebook and starts flipping through it until she gets to a glossary she made to make sure she gets things right. "Dammi... denominations. Sorry, it's a lot to hold in my head. I'm not used to this. I can ask my teacher later if I'm kicked out. I am a researcher. I have trouble with teh religious part of this. Like if someone asked an atheist to be a spy of god? sortof? Sure I guess, if it helps people. I feel a calling.

It feels irrational and I got sick last year and sometimes I'm agitated like everything is fake but there is more out there than I know. So I try to follow reasons to figure stuff out. Some things feel right some don't. If I get kicked out for what I beleive or do then I didn't belong. If I die, I hope someone takes care of my niece." She looks down and frowns.

There's a lot of ways people can sit. Zach listens to Alma defend her choices to talk to Zach on principle and other factors, and that's enough that he will sit near her anyway. He steps in a little closer, using the sole of his boot to fold down some grass, and then comes to kneeling in front and slightly to her left. His weight then settles back onto his heels. It's a fairly upright posture, and not one that many people would choose - most people would sit in the tailor's or 'cross-legged' position, or recline. He chooses this kneeling position, hands resting on his thighs. It's called Seiza. "I am the last person on Earth to criticize someone for listening to their calling. Wherever that takes you, that's a thing I'll respect. For what it's worth, getting kicked out ain't so bad. Best thing that ever happened to me, actually. That and failing."

"I can't even remember where we were on the phone. I think it started when I was wondering how you aren't paralyzed by choices when you are with people. because of how you talked the other day. but I think I understand a little more now. I keep arguing with you in my head so I'd rather talk to you for real." She had both knees up to prop a book open before you show'd up, and now you're here, sitting down. She's put her book down but still has her legs up and she's kind of hugging them.

"Arguing with me in your head?" Zach doesn't repeat the statement, as a question, because he disbelieves, rather he uses the readback to add a hint of amusement, and mock insult. "Without me?" Because he's not insulted that you'd argue, but that he's left out of the clash of course. "I mean, I guess that's efficient though, I can still do other things and be arguing with people. Damn I'm good at this." The self congratulation is all performance, of course, but there it is. "And no, I'm not paralyzed by much these days. But I've also been working on that for a while."

"Yes you're very efficient, good job." She smirks, and then she relaxes a little more, relaxing the hold on her legs. "I'm not going to figure things out by talking to people who agree with me, and I don't agree with you. Ok, so let me figure out my way here. Remember the center? the other day? Second Stories?" She looks to see if Zach remembers.

"Kinda? Say yes for now - but first:" Zach says, holding up his index finger, "You just said the thing that is basically me in a nutshell." He'll repeat it for her, now, "I don't figure shit out talking with people who agree with me." He gestures, then, for her to continue along her line of inquiry, however. A huge amount of the tension he might've brought here melts away now.

She starts relating some recent history. "Up until maybe a few months ago I had a lot going on with family. Things have settled down. A little about me? Sometimes I like hiking more than people. But my mom is a community organizer in Chicago, and I've been roped in to help her run things. Like, do you know if you use a fingerprint to open a phone you aren't legaly protected by the first admendment and police can force you to unlock it but if you have a passcode you're protected?" She stops rambling and tries to get to a point.

"With the family-uh, my brother and his wife died last year. car crash. I'm not going back in time for that, ok?-I met a lot of people while waiting for her to die. Lot of old people too. No visitors. no respect. No agency." It's heavy and she pulls out a water bottle from her bag to take a drink.

When I was an undergrad I was in clubs in teh student union and we did things like pamplhets and stuff. I kept trying to get people interested in an eldercare group at J.I.G.S.A.W. but no one has really done anything. And then I started searching around. There's an eldercare group at the Ruth Ellis Center but they aren't around here. Ok but here's where it gets weird. They open a youth center. see? A youth center. Maybe I'm supposed to help beginnings? I still... I'm tired you know? I still know a lot of people from last year and I go check in on their relatives. like, what if I could give someone a space of lucidity with their family? ok, but anyway. those kids? It's hard to tell with all this. kind of weird magic stuff. hard to read."

Zach listens now, following along... for the most part. "Elders remind us of our mortality. Almost nobody likes to face that. Kids remind us of our unbound potential. Much easier sell. Same reason kittens don't linger in a shelter as long." This isn't to justify the situation, however, he's merely reciting his perspective on the facts to demonstrate that yes, he's following along. "Is that what you want to do, though? Provide hospice care and comfort to folks that people have forgotten, and who aren't being valued by the people who've left them behind?"

"I don't know, Zach. I thought maybe that was it, but then magic. What is it for? And I have a kid now? and the center opens? Or maybe I'm supposed to talk to ghosts? I can't figure that out. but I do know that people need help cleaning up. That's pretty reasonable. And I can make breakfast. If religion gets in the way of doing that, I made a mistake. So, the impulse control problem. just one example. How is it me forcing my will on someone to give them more time to understand consequences? Or like my new intern. I looked at her and figured out her motivation and where the weak point was in her decision chain. I freed her up from a bad job because I knew enough to talk about it. I don't know touchy feely shit okay but I'm learning. the magic helps that"

"Oooyyy," Zach says, reaching up to rub at his face. "So now I have to say the thing: There's no such thing as magic." It's a tired thing, the sort of thing he's tired of saying, even if it keeps needing to be said, even if it's not a thing people who do magic like to hear. "On a very real level, talking to someone to change their mind can be the same thing as just making up their mind for them and transferring that decision to their conciousness.

"Except for this: One technique, people are able to easily resist if they want to - the words you say, like I'm saying now? I'm putting these ideas in front of you. You can pick them up, look at them from different angles, internalize them if you want, or reject them if you don't want. You don't even need to listen to me, you could just let them slide on by you.

"But if I decide instead to go tinkering with your senses, or write new memories into your consciousness directly? Without your /informed/ consent, about what that means and entails? That's a violation of your personhood, that's an override of who you are. And /especially/ if you're not looking for that, or don't even realize that this is a thing someone can do? I'm attacking you on a level that you can't possibly defend yourself from. It's a violent act.

"Sometimes we use violence to achieve things, because we find the consequences of not using that violence to be unacceptable, or less acceptable than use of force. But just because you /can/ do a thing, doesn't mean you should. What agency are you leaving for the other? That's my measuring stick. It doesn't have to be yours, but forcing people to be 'better' in your eyes is a violent path, and waaaaaay too many - /especially/ among the Council - follow that path." He'd wound himself up again as he goes through that, but now he deflates, stepping off the metaphorical soap box.

"I don't think words are as resistable as you think. And I don't want to make people better." she sits up some more, startled, and picks up one of her books. "I think this guy was a prophet. 'You, my friend, are lonely, because...'," she starts. "'We, with words and finger-pointings,/gradually make the world our own,/perhaps its weakest, most precarious part.' There's more but, you know, this is not a poetry reading." She sets it down. "I don't want to make things 'better'. This is warning me about it. He talks about Esau in the end. I don't get that, but I think it's a warning. And finger pointing?" She does an exasperated sigh, "I don't remember where it is but, finger pointing to the moon for moon? I'm tricked, see? but I know it. Sometimes I just go in a book store and flip a coin to find a section. That's a euthantoic religion thing. Kind of useful I think. Coins are rather silly, I like noise. visual not just like what you did. but NO. no bettering."

"I don't know what is wrong. I could give you some things to read. how people were treated in asylums because of mental illness. and some kids shouldn't have to run away but their parents want to make them better. Maybe someone would have killed me because I have a girlfriend and would supposedly be married to a decent man in the next life. I can see those mistakes." as if to contrast with the mistakes she can't see now, that she might lobotmize someone for.

Zach listens, and nods, he liked the poetry actually. "Words aren't fully resistable, no. But at least you're working in the same weight class as the other person, most of the time. If they don't have language with you, or on your level, then you need to find some way to communicate that they can participate in.

"But if you're asking me, or were asking me - maybe you've figured out my answer by now - if I don't fear making a mistake and treading on someone by accident; harming them in a way I don't understand? Thre is no magic. We're all just people, living out our lives as best we know how. There's going to be hurt and pain and disaster. It's a chaotic system and things that we do not desire will come flying out of that swirling mess of interactions and tear off pieces of us. You can't avoid what you don't understand - and mistakes are the only way you're going to find that understanding. So I live. I fuck up. And I try to do better the next time. Rinse and repeat."

"Well, at the beginning it was more that I wondered how you could justify existing with people. It just seemed really radical, what I thought you meant." She looks puzzled. "I still don't understand the magic. If there's no magic then it's all magic, even talking. An I suppose it's not just the," she exasperatedly airquotes, "magic", end quote, "traditions you" she's a little disorganized now because she's mulling over a lot of stuff, like all the unethical mundane psychology..."well, you better be consistent because I hate being disappointed."

Zach chuckles a little ruefully when she informs him of her expectations for him. "I kind of don't exist with people," he says. "I wander. I don't have memberships. I rarely have friends. But I also didn't choose to exist. I'm as much an accident of the universe as anything else - except that I have Free Will and have decided to thereby have meaning. So I guess I exist a little bit with people. I make no promises that I'm fully consistent, let alone consistent with your vision of me - but I do try. That much I can promise you."

Alma looks a little chagrined. "I think I got carried away and was a little arrogant there. I'm not.. hey it's like force. I don't force you to consistency. hmm, ok."

Zach shakes his head, "I didn't take it that way. I just might give a damn, a little bit," he holds up two fingers very close together to establish a sense of scale for the give-a-damn, "about whether or not I let you down on this. Consistency - or at least coherency - is important to me. It's how I reconcile myself with my Entelechy. So in this, I hope I don't disappoint you. I am human, though. Prone to fucking up."

"Yeah, me too." She looks over at her book, "You can read this one if you like, but I don't know. And then maybe I'll see you around. I'm just going to stay here and read a while now. ok?" She leaves that book out to the side and picks up another.

"I can get my own copy," Zach says, after looking over at the title. "The library in town's pretty decent." He lays it back down beside her. "Thank you for the chat though. This was a good conversation." He rises from that kneeling position after that and comes to his feet, soon to be walking back towards his Jeep.

Later that day Alma texts her mentor after meeting Zach in the park. Zach keeps going on and on about how she might have heard of him and how she could get in trouble for talking to him. uh, ok? whatever? let's get back to the point of the conversation.

Alma: I met some guy Zach who thought maybe I wasn't supposed to talk to him

Alma: it was okay we talked and I told him about washing dishes and stuff and the meaning of life

Alma: am I kicked out?

Alma: he seemed really edgy about things but relaxes after a while

None: You don't get kicked out over things like talking to people.

Alma: I figured but man did he make a big deal of it

None: Talking to some people is a better idea than talking to others, though.

None: Did you ask why?

Alma: I wanted to let him tell me anything like that in his own time. I wanted to know why he could live in a city and not be paralyzed because of actions

None: Do you feel paralyzed by the city?

Alma: no. I love the city. I didn't expect to.

None: That's wonderful. Have you found what needs tending?

Alma: Not yet. I walk the city and meet people. everyone had the flu this week. I took care of my niece and some of the families here. walking with people holds the city together

None: Pilgrimage is a good way.

None: Look to the edges. Find what's ready to fall off.